Enviro-safe EV12a Refrigerant Products DuraCool A12 Glacier GOLD Refrigerants Autocool HC 12a r152a is very good and enviro safe cyclopropane is very good and safe autofrost Subject: AC Installation Tips List, hooking up AC on your conversion is fairly easy. If you are a parts pulling type, look for an AC compressor rated for R134. Or buy your donor engine making sure it has the later style compressor. They will say right on them whether they are for R12 or R134. Most 1994 Legacies came with these and some 1993s as well. Later models all have them and these will fit on your engine. Cut off the hoses about a foot back from the aluminum fittings on the compressor. At this point is is necessary to drive the converted van to an AC shop. Have the AC shop fit the hose ends to your VW hoses. You must be patient with the shops as they will try to upsell you on the job, but all you need is for them to fabricate the hose end connections, and evacuate and "clean" the system with AC flush. My shop charged $150 for the hose job. Probably took them 2 hrs. A hose only shop would do this over the counter for cheaper but getting the hoses out of the van is hard work. At this point one can charge the system oneself with cans of R134. Or have the shop charge it, but be prepared for it to cost more than DIY. That is all I had to do to mine. I turned it on, and it worked! Changing the drier is recommended but if the system is not open for very long it can be skipped. DDF Having recently (shop) converted my Westie to R134, I have several personal observations. 1) Finding the correct (facing Vanagon forward) fittings for the Subie compressor is challenging, but the A/C shop can and needed to do some welding to make it all work out correctly (charging valves, directional orientation of metal lines). My system now looks totally stock and neatly arranged in the engine bay. 2) my expansion valve was indeed plugged up with gunk as was diagnosed years ago before the system leaked out; bits of rubber and black debris filled the inlet side of the valve. I had all the hoses changed out as they were 19 years old and had blown out several times previously with R12. I suspect the hoses were the main culprit in the debris shower. 3) My system needed a new expansion valve-in my Westy this is easily accessed by removing the A/C vent cover from the upper rear cabinet; also replaced the old drier with a new type with fittings for hi/lo pressure cut out switches that my "factory" system apparently did not have. In my reading this should always be replaced in a conversion from R12 to R134. My 1985 Westy Wolfsburg has a factory-installed but apparently aftermarket A/C system which does not conform to the Bentley diagrams in any way at all, as far as I can tell. 4) Flush, flush. One shop I spoke with did not feel this was needed, but after seeing the expansion valve internals this would have been a serious mistake, in my opinion. 5) I chose R134 despite issues with claimed poorer cooling, because it is easily serviceable and rechargeable by me. I cannot tell if it performs any better or worse that R12 at this point, as the old system with R12 was never very good all the way up front anyway. Seems about the same so far, but we'll see once it gets really hot in Denver. 6) I had to wire up the ECU to boost idle speed with compressor activation; 1 wire hookup and everything is great. 7) I had purchased a new stock drier from Vanagain, intending to use this in my conversion, but as noted I needed a different type to conform to EPA regs. It is new, in the original box and never unsealed if someone wants to buy it from me for a discount. 8) The nicest thing about this conversion is that the van will accelerate nicely even with the A/C on! Never could do both at the same time with my 1.9L WBX. Connor 85 Westy/02 2.5L Subject: Re: [subaruvanagon] Vanagon AC to Subaru Compressor (Howto needed) Hey John, Soon I will be mating my Subaru compressor to the Vanagon. I have done a bit of research on this subject. I have found that opinions on this subject vary with what to do. First, I plan on using DURACOOL 12A as my refrigerant (www.duracool.com). This product is: 1. Compatible with mineral and synthetic oils. 2. Claims to be 35% more energy efficent than R134A (not sure about R12). 3. Non-corrosive. 4. Operates at a lower head pressure (extends the life of your compressor). Visit their website. They have some good instructions on flushing/installing/specs/etc. Second, from what I have gathered/researched, anytime that a dryer has been left exposed to atmosphere for any length of time, it should be replaced. I plan on replacing mine due to the time mine has been left exposed to atmosphere and age. Third, flushing the system. Some say to simple blow compressed air to remove crud. If the compressed air has moisture in it, that is not good. I plan on flushing my system with a A/C cleaner. Remove the old dryer, connect dryer inlet/outlet lines together, and flush lines (not through the compressor). Some suggest using mineral sprits for the cleaner. There is special A/C cleaners available, probably just mineral spirits. Fourth, there a small valve (don't recall name or location, it is early, on my first cup of coffee) that should be checked. It has a small screen that should be cleaned. I plan on replacing this valve if the cost is not to extreme. This valve would also be removed/bypassed when flushing the system. Fifth, pulling a vacuum. Some suggest pulling a vacuum and checking for leaks for a short period (maybe an hour or two). Depending on how good the vacuum pump/gauge is, determines if a leak can be detected. I plan on checking for a 24 hour period. That may be extreme, but I do not want a leak. Sixth, installing newer A/C charging fittings. I am going to incorporate the newer charging fittings for future maintenance. Therefore I will not need adaptors for my gauges. And finally there is a Yahoo group called Vanagonair (if I recall correctly), that discusses various subjects about Vanagon A/C systems. You might want to research the group for further information related to capacities of lubricants/etc. I visited their site several months ago and discovered the Duracool 12A refrigerant. Hope this helps. I will let you know how everything comes out on my mine, if I can ever finish my other projects. With summer here, I am sure that I am going to place a higher priority on this project. Hopefully, I too will be chilling soon. So much to do, so little time, isn't this fun? Larry FASTVANAGON Subject: Re: Vanagon AC to Subaru Compressor I recently went through hooking up my AC for the second time.... I'm embarrassed to say how much money I have spent trying to get functional dual air in my van. My system is an oddball, however, since I have a second evaporator/fan unit made by Behr installed in the front. This required splicing a second set of refrigerant hoses into the original ones in the engine bay and running the new second set to and from the evaporator in front. Other than the second run of refrigerant pipes to the front....the big issue in my system was getting the right aluminum compressor to hose fittings made....the ones that come out of the compressor. There are several types of AC compressors used in Subarus...some of them in the same model year cars. The most common one for 90-94 Legacy has the hose fittings coming out the right side of the compressor (as you face the engine in the van from the back) and the fittings are made with some pretty odd angles to go around each other and (if I remember correctly).....in the Subaru one ends up leading to the rear of the engine bay through the firewall and one ends up going to the front condensor unit...this directional arrangement probably would work OK in a Vanagon...but its better if they both point to the back of the Van where the original hoses are. (Yesterday I looked at a 92 Legacy wagon that still had the original R12 compressor but with the hoses coming out the top of the compressor...one going to the back...one going to the front.) I decided to change my system to R134A refrigerant and I bought a later model compressor originally built for R134. (This was the beginning of a big problem ....and I later heard this may not have been necessary.) Using the original compressor would result in much less problem and expense with missmatched hose fittings. There's a lot of debate on the net about converting older R-12 systems with the original compressors to R134A....I couldn't get any sense of who was right or wrong so I just thought I would be safer to change to one made for R134. The change made things more difficult (and expensive) by not having the correct fittings and hoses to match my new compressor. The new compressor was designed with the two hose fittings exiting directly out the top of the compressor rather than the more common side mount hoses. I didn't realize this at first and simply took the new compressor to the AC shop and gave it to them...thinking it would be "plug and play" compatible......big mistake! The AC shop just tried to match the original "odd angle" hoses to the new compressor without modifying them....which resulted in some pretty weird and funny looking angles for the hoses running around my engine bay...and some bending stress on one of them that encouraged the older original hose to quickly crack and leak. This second time I started looking for the correct hose fittings to match my compressor and couldn't find any.....not many Subaru's in my local wrecking yards. So I decided to just have the original aluminum fittings cut and rewelded....another expensive choice! Welding small aluminum pipes is a bit of an art...I guess..and the first guy tried twice and couldn't get a leakproof weld....found a second guy... more skilled ...but the final tab for the two of them was $160 in welding costs. The system is now hooked up and working fine...with the hoses running neatly around the perimeter of the engine bay...and I love having that cold air blowing on me from the front. But this second installment was almost $500 in total additional labor costs. Like I said...with all of my time spent installing the Behr unit...and what I spent last summer having the second set of hoses fabricated and installed...plus this year's installment......I'm now into the AC system for almost as much money as the engine conversion. I hate when that happens. But a lot of the expense was due to "pioneering" in areas where I did not have any expertise..(installing the dual system)....and paying for my mistakes...and maybe choosing the wrong AC shop to start with....but its hard to find anyone willing to do this custom type of work. Hope this and some of these other AC related posts save you some of my expensive mistakes. Most of you will not have the dual air issues and hopefully will not have the problem of missmatched compressors and hose fittings....so your costs should be much less. My SO told me once she wouldn't go (summer camping) with me unless the van had air. Now when she turns it on and that cool air blows in her face ...she's happy...but I see (big) dollar signs. Cooler but poorer. Warren C. Moderator Michael, I got me AC working very well. Pasted below are my notes; I'll pmail you a coupla pix showing the routing. The 86 may have a slightly different layout than your 84, but should be similar. Ron Paitich Auburn CA 1986 7-Passenger Syncro / 1995 EJ22 ======================================================= Here is how I got my AC adapted to my 1986 Syncro with a 1991 EJ22: * My '86 Syncro had factory air that worked very well before the WBXer went bye-bye * was an R-12 system * I harvested the Subaru hoses from my donor car, so I could have adapter hoses made * I left the VW hoses stock * A competent AC shop (Ken at Servicenter Radiator in Auburn, 530-885-2282) can make the adapters; hešll cut off the Subaru fittings and weld to tubing for two custom hoses * on the low side hose, we added a high pressure shutoff switch; I cut the wire that goes directly to the Subie AC clutch and connected one side to one wire of this switch, the other wire of the switch is connected to the VW AC clutch power. This wire has no voltage until the system is filled to some minimum pressure, as detected by the VW internal sensors- you'll hear it 'click' as you fill with refrigerant. * The VW hoses remain stock * The suction side routes along the firewall, over the Subaru air snorkel * High pressure side routes along the rear panel, just in front of the license plate * we vacuum tested the system to verify it was sealed * I had to open it to air, because of a growl in the compressor, so I added 4 oz mineral oil to the AC compressor and rotated it by hand for ten revs to prevent liquid lock at first start * I reconnected AC hoses * I have a vacuum pump, so I evacuated the system myself * Started the engine, turned on the AC; clutch wonšt engage until therešs some pressure in the system * I filled with 2.5 cans of alternate to R-12a, to 35 PSI on low-pressure side. Some alternates are illegal for automotive use, so make your own determination as to which refrigerant youšll use: [http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html#q3] * Some have criticized use of the Duracool-12 because it's flammable. I figure that if I get in a bad enough accident to release a few ounces of a flammable gas, that's minor compared to the 10+ gallons of gasoline. * My AC works very well and blows as cold as the stock VW AC did; summer temps here get to 100+, so Išm delighted that it works well. * Cost of the hoses and vacuum test was about $280. http://www.rayeveritt.com/Fittings/BulkHose.htm Automobile Refrigerants: ======================= R12 is a CFC (chlorofluorocarbon), ozone damaging. R22 is an HCFC (contains hydrogen), so it breaks up in the atmosphere before reaching the ozone layer. R22 is 1/20 the ozone depletion of R12. Straight R22, could cause head pressures of 700-800 PSIG if used in an R12 automotive A/C system, busting the hoses, or causing the pop-off to dump the charge, etc. Normal automotive systems run max 400-450 PSIG, hot days. Condenser temps on hot days exceed 212F sometimes, which is above the "critical temp" (the max temp at which a gas will liquify at any pressure). This could cause a rapid pressure increase (above 700-800 PSIG), since liquid R22 would not exist anymore, and surely something would bust or explode at this point. Nationwide Ban of R12/R22 in 1lb cans starts Nov 15, this year, unless one has EPA certification (must own a recycler and have training). See the "1990 clean air act" for all this stuff. An electronic copy is available on anonymous ftp from ei.ecn.purdue.edu (128.46.129.30) as pub/clean-air.Z R-134a. This is a "new molecule", but has been tested for about 10 years. It is not miscible in standard mineral oils used in R-12 systems. It is also slightly less effecient than R-12, requiring larger compressors and condensers. All kinds of special lubricants are being devised for R-134a (like PAG, Ester-based, etc). In general, the lubricants are VERY SENSITIVE to contamination by things like water and chloride ions (from traces of R-11, R-12) around. Using a manifold gauge set on R-12 systems, then on an R-134a system causes enough contamination to break down the lubricants and cause compressor failure. It is unknown if Automotive assembly can keep systems clean enough during assembly for reliable operation. R-134a cannot be used in existing R-12 systems. The industry reccomended procedure is to retro-fit existing R-12 systems to R-134a, by removing the old system and installing a new R-134a system, for the cost of approx $1000-$1400. Although R-134a is listed as "non flammable", it is known to become flammable at 5PSIG above atmospheric pressure. I have heard of two incidents of "explosions" involving R-134a during service operations. The 1992 Ford Tarus is using R-134a (starting this month), and 2 or 3 foreign made cars also have it. By the 1995 model year, 100% of new automotive production will be R-134a systems. Zero ozone depletion. May be vented until 1995, then must be recovered. R-176. R-176 (blend of R-12/R-22/R-142b), claimed to be a drop-in for R-12/R-22/R-500/R-502. In reality, it can't be "dropped in" for any of them, since its pressure is too low, even for R-12. One may be able to make it work by finagling the expansion device. It has 15% R-12 (CFC12), bad news. Non flammable. Invented by Boris Ermak, circa 1984. R-142b is slightly flammable, but dilution by the other components leaves the overall blend non flammable, as long as one does not "top off" leaking systems. Mixture changes on leaking, so this blend must be "recovered" (pumped into a tank), and returned to mfgr for reclaim or to be destroyed. 85% less ozone depletion than R-12. Hydrocarbons (e.g. isobutane/propane) Have been used for years at refineries, and other applications which deal with flammability, etc. Works well as a refrigerant. A blend of 21% isobutane and 79% propane (by weight) is a good drop-in for R-12. Good oil miscibility. I made this blend and ran it for 3 months in a Datsun 810.. no problems. Skydivers (whom jump every week) would not even ride in my car, figuring it would blow up. Only about 1 lb is needed for the A/C system. What about the 20 gals of gasoline, brake fluid, flammable tire inflators, etc?. nobody seems to worry about them. But use a flammable refrigerant, people and industry go nuts, they remember the Hindenburg, the flaming Pinto Wreck, etc. The best I can recall, nobody will ever "accept" a flammable refrigerant today. It is cheap (less than $.50 per charge for materials), has zero ozone depletion (it can be vented), and is much less sensitive to water in the system (does not make acids like CFC/HCFCs do). Does not need to be recycled or recovered. DuPont SUVA MP39. Blend of R-124/R-152a/R-22. It is a drop-in pressure-wise. It requires the old (mineral oil) to be flushed out of the system and replaced with alkyl-benzene based oils (a 525 viscosity equiv of "Zerol"). Driers also need to use XH9 desiccant instead of the usual XH5 desiccant. The R-124 used in the blend is a "new molecule" and has not completed the industry toxicity testing (PAFT). Est completion: around 1995. Another new molecule, R-123, chemically close to R-124, has been found to cause testicle tumors in rats at 300 PPM exposure. Human exposure to R-123 now set at 10PPM. R-123 is farther along in the PAFT than is R-124. The R-152a is flammable, but dilution by the other components leaves the overall blend non flammable, as long as one does not "top off" leaking systems. Mixture changes on leaking, so this blend must be "recovered" (pumped into a tank), and returned to mfgr for reclaim or to be destroyed. Not miscible in R-12 oils (mineral oils), but works fine in alykl-benzene oils. 96-97% less ozone depletion than R-12. GHG R-12 substitute (People's Welding Supply) NOW CALLED R-406A Blend of isobutane (8%) / R-142b (37%) / R-22 (55%) by weight. isobutane is flammable, R-142b is barely flammable. The R-22 dilutes this blend so it is non flammable. "topping off" leaking systems is not allowed, as mixture can change during leaking. This blend also must be "recovered" (pumped into a tank), and returned to the mfgr for reclaim or to be destroyed. It is miscible in standard mineral oils used in R-12 systems and has worked for 2 years in existing R-12 systems. (using standard XH5 drier desiccants). R-142b has existed for decades and is not a "new molecule", and its toxicity testing has been done for quite some time now. Oil change is not required. Performance is often better than R-12, often 2-12F colder discharge air. A "high performance" version is under test, which delivers subfreezing air (28F) at 100F outside temps. A "self-sealing" version using the dehydrants/sealants from Cryo-Chem, Intl (an air activated silicon epoxy which circulates with the refrigerant, and at leak sites, hits oxygen and moisture, and polymerizes at the leak site, sealing it). If anybody wants data-sheets (email me), and I can email them out to you (around 1000 lines). 96% less ozone depleting (per car) than R-12 (for "regular"), and upto 99-100% less ozone depleting than R-12 (per car) for "self-sealing" version, assuming 5 "recharges" are saved over the life of the car, and the refrigerant is recovered before the car is junked. It should also be noted that if any of the above refrigerants, are used in an actual system, they are mixed in with some sort of lubricating oil. Any rapid release (e.g. busting a hose), brings out a highly atomized oil spray, which is quite flammable, even if the refrigerant is plain R-12. --ghg g...@purdue.edu --------------------------------------------------- GHG refrigerant-12 substitute: blend of 8% isobutane, 37% R-142b, 55% R-22. I invented this one two years ago. It is running in approx 500 vehicles now, and several stationary units. It requires no system changes, and works with existing (mineral) compressor oils, and driers. Also a "self-sealing" version available which has a "gaseous" epoxy, which circulates with the refrigerant and upon leaking, is actived (polymerizes) when it hits moisture and oxygen on the outside of the system. The sealant stays in the system and seals new leaks as they form. Will not seal compressor shaft seals (moving parts), but these are rare in cars. Cryo-Chem makes the sealant. They also make R-12 and R-22 "self-sealing" kits (800-237-4001 for Cryo Chem). GHG refrigerant (and INFO) is available to airshops and qualified service personal from Monroe Air Tech, (800) 424 3836. The Mobile Air Conditioning Society (MACS) has filed a petition with the EPA (Mar 30, 1992) asking the EPA to ban the use off all substitutes and/or blends for CFC-12 auto systems, unless MACS and SAE "approve" them first. MACS claims that the blends will destroy the national recycling program, ruin hoses, seals, compressors, etc. We haven't seen that any of this to be true. In fact most R-12 recyclers are already water contaminated now. Visiting about a dozen air shops last year, all had "WET" moisture indicators. They are putting WET R-12 back in cars they service, which could cause corrosion and acid eat outs a few months down the road. Moisture is a far more serious problem then mixing small amounts of blends with each other and CFC-12. One has to keep R-12, and all the blends OUT OF A R-134a system, or the PAG oil will self-destruct. Small amounts of R-134a or mixed blends in an R-12 system (or recycler) will not cause problems. R-134a systems alrealy use different fittings (ACME "square" threads) to prevent this problem. The president of MACS, Art Hobbs, works for a company, "Four Seasons" which makes replacement A/C systems and parts, and recyclers. Ward Atkinson, MACS technical advisor, has told the press that "there is nothing which will replace CFCs" [for auto A/C], and they must be retrofitted to "harmless " R-134a at $800 to $1000 each. There are 140 million A/C cars in the US (225 million worldwide) with A/C. This amounts to around $100 Billion in retrofit business in the US alone. Last week I gave a seminar to a group from the North American Council of Automotive Teachers (NACAT), and nobody in one group of 40 or so HAD EVER SEEN A GREEN MOISTURE SIGHT GLASS. They were always "wet" (yellow). I passed around a green (dry) one in the talk. I am hearing that mechanics almost never change their driers in the recycling equipment. I, personally, would always insist, that new virgin R-12 (aka Freon) be used during A/C service, along with a new drier (if the system has to be "opened up"). It may cost $50 more or so, but it may save your system from total failure in the next year or so from moisture. If moisture/corrosion eats your evaporator full of holes, one is talking about $600-$1200 to replace it. One may be able to use Cryo-Chem self-sealant (kits) on evaporator leaks of 1lb/day leaks or use GHG self-sealing on (30 day or longer leaks) instead of changing an evaporator. ___________________________________ AutoFrost (GHG-X3 / R-406A) Features Substitute for R-12 in almost all cases Substitute for R-500 in most instances also. NO OIL CHANGE required - uses standard R-12 mineral oils or AB US EPA SNAP "acceptable" for most all stationary/transport (cargo) refrigeration NOW EPA acceptable NOW for Cars (MVAC) use. EPA has reviewed the application and found R-406A acceptable for automotive use subject to "use" conditions (unique fittings, barrier hoses, etc) Published in the Federal Register Oct 16, 1996, effective date 11/15/96. Text or Adobe Acrobat (PDF) formats of this final rule from the EPA homepage. GHG-X4 (AutoFrost-X4/R-414A) and GHG-HP are also included in this final rule. NO CFCs - formula by weight %: R-22/R-142b/R-600a 55/41/4 Technical help - 1-888-AUTOFROST (1-888-288-6376). Ask for code 10 [service provided by MEA] NONFLAMMABLE as formulated, only weakly flammable after worst case leakage Performs equal to or BETTER THAN R-12. Monroe Airtech Question & Answer Sheet on Autofrost (Adobe Acrobat PDF format) About 95% less Ozone Depleting and 88% less Global Warming than R-12 R-406A ODP is 0.0553 (per pound) or 0.0442 (per system, only 80% as much as R-12 is used). R-12 ODP is 1.0. GWP is based on halocarbon GWP, 100 yr ITH. MUST be charged into system as liquid to prevent composition change CANNOT BE VENTED (in the USA) - must be recovered (contains HCFCs) DO NOT USE IN R-134a systems. PAG or Ester (POE) oils may be destroyed. Autofrost Compatibility issues ******************************** Hi Brent, I had a company called Jackson Auto Parts here in Oklahoma City make the hoses. I took in my Subie connections (that attach to the compressor) and two lengths of rope that I used to represent my routing options and thus the lengths I needed each hose to be. One represented the length of the high pressure side and the other the low pressure side (your lengths may vary depending on where you routed your hoses). The way I routed mine it took 48 inches of low pressure (large diameter) hose and 82 inches of high pressure (small diameter) hose. They crimped the new hoses to the parts that attach to the compressor. They then gave me two splice kits (one larger than the other). The splices were made of aluminum and barbed. Each one came with clamps that are essentially regular stainless clamps but they have a little arm on them to help position them directly over the barbs. The total price for the hoses, crimps, labor, and a couple of o-rings was $82 and some change. I took all of those things and went home, took a hacksaw and cut my Vanagon hoses where I wanted to join them to the (now longer) Subie connections. I then used WD40 to lube the barb and hose and began the rather arduous task of inserting them. They are necessarily tight, so it took me the better part of an hour to twist, squeeze, and otherwise curse them on. I then clamped them in place. I used a 1/4 inch drive ratchet to tighten them because the AC guy said a screwdriver would not get them tight enough. At this point my friend Spike comes in. He is a mechanic at a local Toyota dealer. I took the van to the shop (it was on Saturday so we were sort of flying under the radar) and he pulled a vacuum on the system and we gave it plenty of time to leak down. It didn't, and I was pleasantly surprised. We then added dye and charged the system and used a UV light to check for leaks. There were not any! Again, I was pleasantly surprised. The parts manager only charged me $37 (dealer cost) for everything. I really lucked out on this part of the deal. Jackson Parts (or Jackson Automotive or whatever they are called) did not cut me any special deal. I didn't know anyone there so I assume I paid full price for everything. If you like, I will find my receipt and get their name (it's Jackson something) and phone number and pass it along. They guy who did it for me is named Mark and I think he is probably the owner. So far the system is working pretty well. I don't think it has ever really reached 50 degrees at the vent even when I'm driving along. Spike said it would be better if it dropped to 45 or so, but I'm happy just to have a bit of cool air blowing on my neck. The only time it seems a bit warm up front is when I'm driving into the sun and the blower in the back just can't push the air forward quite enough (mine bus is a Westy). Good luck. Let me know if you want the contact info.