No, no, you did the right thing. You have to fabricate the circuit yourself. Once I got that premise understood I was really able to understand the wiring much better. Just the idea of understanding what each circuit tied to and having no loyalty to keeping any of the existing wires was a huge step. Lay out the end points (gray engine plugs, relays, ecu) approx where you want them in correlation to your van layout. You could essentially cut every wire a few inches from the end point and start out fresh connecting the dots. That is with the exception of the shield grounds which are easier just to leave alone. Hope that answers your question. You WILL tie into the relay pin wires as well as route to the new fused link. Feel free to call if you get buried in this and feel it will help you. I'm bad about being available by phone but if I know it's you and am not in the middle of something, I'd be more than happy to talk with you. I know this can be frustrating. Happy Easter to you too, Brent Marty Robinson wrote: Brent, You are a wealth of Information. Most of it is over my head. I can see the wires you describe but I do not see an obvious tail. Once I locate the circuit, do I splice into it or is there suppose to be an obvious tail that I must have cut? A-15 on my ECU leads from the ECU to nothing. just a short wire about a foot long. I must have cut it. Do I take it back to the relay pin wires you described and splice into them and then take a wire to the Hot B+ with the 30A fuse? I willl work on it later and get back. Happy Easter,,,,,,thanks,,Marty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Weide's Yahoo Account To: Marty Robinson Subject: Re: comments from website on subaru and vw Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Marty: You picked the most confusing wire of all to puzzle over. It took me a day or so of head scratching to figure that one. First thing to know is that there are two yellow circuits. One is ignition + and the other if full time hot. The full time hot is the larger wires. I really like that pdf file which is named VERY GOODWiringHarnessSchematic.pdf for this part.... Here's my best explanation of the different yellow circuits which are easy to confuse. FULL TIME HOT WIRES - Hot B+ Feed Direct From Battery w/ 15A Fuse - ECU A15 wire (yel/red) - Ign. Relay pins 5,6 (large yel) - Fuel Relay pin 2 (large yel)(kitty corner to D23 green/blu) IGNITION ON HOT WIRES - ECU A13 Wire (yel/red) - ECU A2 (yel/red) - Ignition Relay Pin 3 (yel/red) ANOTHER CIRCUIT IGNITION ON HOT WIRE - Fused Connection to Ignition On in Junction Box w/ 10A Fuse - ECU B12 (yel) - Alternator connection (yellow wire coming from 3 wire connector) - Fuel Pump Relay (small yellow) - Diode for Ignition Relay (yel) - 16pin gray connector Ignition Coil (yel) HERES ANOTHER CIRCUIT THAT OFTEN GETS CONFUSED - O2 pin 2 (yel/red) - Select monitor pin 5 - 16 pin engine connector pin 11 (yel/red) - 16 pin engine connector pins 8 & 12 (yel/red) - Ignition Relay Pin 4 (yel/red) Marty: Sorry for the delay in answering, I'm on biz down in Brisbane so my timeclock's a bit off from yours. Hey, there should be one 16 terminal connector squarish in shape, another 16 terminal connector, one huge one that's bolted together, and if you had an automatic transmission donor, another gray square connector. It's likely that the one you're looking at is the auto trans one. Oh yeah, there's another more rectangular connector that deals only with engine grounds only. You want to keep both of the 16 terminal connectors, and the engine ground connector. Lose the auto trans one. The keeper two gray square ones are easy to spot. Trace wire number C11, D1, and D2 from the ecu. They end up going into the first of the 16 terminal connectors that you'll keep. The other side of that connector has wires that have quite a few of their wires going to the fuel injection wires, the water temp ecu sensor, etc. Trace wires D6, D11, D12 (to name a few). They go from the ecu to the second of the gray 16 terminal plugs. The other side of the connector feeds wires to the harness that runs to the fuel injectors, etc. I'll attach a picture herein to help you with your tracing. Brent Marty Robinson wrote: Hi Brent, On the Wire harness there are 3 large gray plugs in a group going to the engine (1990), one being a bit smaller. On the kep blueprint the smaller has written beside it "omit". Do you remember this and help me understand. thanks,,Marty Oh yea I have the engine out and am making some progress. I plan to flip the intake to clear my radiator. Shorten the oil pan. I found papers in the glove box showing recent replacement of timing belts and so forth.. please reply if you have time,,,,thanks,,,,,,Marty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Weide's Yahoo Account To: Marty Robinson Subject: Re: comments from website on subaru and vw Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:30:46 -0800 (PST) It's monday morn for me just now so I'll have to wait a few to enjoy the weekend!!! Yup, the wiring is always worse in your mind than in actual practice. I was curious about the adapte price as KEP's online quote is $540. Have fun, Brent Marty Robinson wrote: Brent, I mislead you on the $100. I emailed Seth. His price is $540 but in stock. Kennedy is $440 with 3 week wait. My bad. I got Kennedy's blueprint today. It's all about cutting out the not needed connecters. Not as intimidating as I thought. I cut one wire a little short earlier, I can fix it. I may pull the motor today, or at least give it a honest effort. Enjoy your weekend or whats left.,,,,,,,,,, later,,,Marty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Weide's Yahoo Account To: Marty Robinson Subject: Re: comments from website on subaru and vw Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:40:24 -0800 (PST) Marty: I'll have to take your (and Hobart's) word on the tranny topic. I have run automatic trans in both of my conversion projects so am useless when it comes to all topics manual trans related. What do you mean about the $100 off? He's now offering discounts or is he lowering the price for good? Brent Marty Robinson wrote: Hi Brent, I just spoke with Mr. Kennedy. He said about 3 weeks backlog but $440, $100 savings. I can wait that long easy. Even longer. He recommended the 200mm flywheel for me, and I said yes because of price. Hope that wasn't a mistake. I run a 3 rib tranny. If I upgrade ot a 091 I can still use the 200mm he says. Let me know what you think,,,,thanks,,,,Marty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Weide's Yahoo Account To: Marty Robinson Subject: Re: comments from website on subaru and vw Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 01:47:27 -0800 (PST) Get some sleep mate. Seth's website is out at www.vanperformance.com I believe. Cheers Brent Marty Robinson wrote: Hi, I am on my real job as a Firefighter, its 3:30am , we just returned from a false alarm. I checked the email. The spreadsheet does mention wires not needed. I should have caught that. Talk to you later. I am going to google H&R,, thanks,,Marty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Weide's Yahoo Account To: Marty Robinson Subject: Re: comments from website on subaru and vw Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:56:34 -0800 (PST) Because of Keps backlog I went through H&R (Seth Hatfield) to get all of my conversion parts (including KEP adapter and header). He has several of each item on hand typically. Your comment about the ecu wires not being needed.....You might just do yourself a favor and create a little sticker to put on the ecu that numbers the wires the same as the excel spreadsheet I gave to you. That way you can trace the wires at a glance. Best of luck with the loan approval process!! Brent Marty Robinson wrote: Hi Brent, I sat down today and cut the dead end wires. I actually enjoyed making the whole thing ligher and less cumbersome. I am sure some of the plugs left can be cut out once I am sure they are not needed. I traced some dead end wires through that connecter with the bolt and cut them too. For some reason one small blue wire leading to the ecu is a dead end wire. I will leave it for now and figure it out later. It may be that all the wires coming from the ecu are not needed , hopefully at least this little blue one. On my application I can make my final lengths once I figure out where I will put the ecu. I am thinking about putting it in an ammo box to seal it. Remember my project is a rail. On a different note, I heard that kep has a waiting period and I have not ordered the adapter yet. Is there another option for supplier? I am just stalling till I can scrape up a couple of side jops to fund. I may order monday if the wife will let me borrow from savings.(wish me luck) thanks again and forward.,,,Marty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Weide's Yahoo Account To: Marty Robinson Subject: Re: comments from website on subaru and vw Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 02:57:50 -0800 (PST) Marty: Yes, you're right that the wires you're cutting off at the blue taped areas can be eliminated. Here's the deal though. You'll likely shorten almost every wire in the harness. With the possible exception of the grounded shields around the sensors which you may be able to leave at their current length. You will end up eliminating a large square plug that actually has a screw/bolt to hold the female and male plugs together. KEP's instructions say that you should cut the wires back from each side of this plug and label them. What I ended up doing is taping an outline of my engine bay and the location of the ecu onto my working table top. I then set the ecu in the taped location which represented my van's rear bench seat where the ecu will finally live. Then I set the various plugs and sensors in their respective locations. In order to do this you may have to cut wires, no worries, just label them when you cut. Once the plugs and sensors are taped in place, you can cut and splice their wires so that everything runs smoothly from the ecu to the sensor or plug. You'll start out with somewhere around 400 wires in the suby harness and end up with around 60 to 70. I would advise splicing your wires with a soldering gun and topping all solders with heat shrink tubing. Makes a nice clean joint that won't break on you. No matter what anyone tells you, the wiring gets easier every time you do it. It's very intimidating to start but once you get into the rythm you'll almost be bummed when it's done. Don't sweat asking questions. I did the same when I was starting and am glad someone else had the patience to help me out. I might not always be able to answer you right away as I can only get these yahoo mails in the evening once I've walked home from work. And if I can't answer I'll at least point you in a decent direction for an answer. Thanks for the offer but I have a subaru haynes manual that has printed copies of the suby schematic. Cheers Brent Marty Robinson wrote: Hi Brent, I got the harness out today and have the engine about ready to pull. I will cut the harness at the blue tape areas soon. It seems to me that the wires that are cut at the blue tape can be traced back and eliminated. True? This will narrow things down a little. I got a CD on the wiring today called 1ezwire. I got it on ebay. It looks very educating. If you do not have it I will see if I can send it to you. I am not very good at computer stuff but I will try if you want me to. You can copy and paste 8038790293 the item number on ebay. I will be emailing you often. If I get annoying just say so and I will understand. thanks,,Marty Brent Weide Portland, Oregon http://www.weidefamily.net/vanagon/ << VERYGOODWiringHarnessSchematic.pdf >>